Hey guys, for MANY years we Pagans have been castigating our newby kindred-souls by stating (and deflating the popular notion) that there was no such Deity as "Samhain", after whom the Sabbat was named. But, is this so? Well, I had always heard that there was never any God (in the masculine) named "Samhain". But, it turns out, that there is certain a Goddess that bears this name--The Morrighan! I ordered an academic article from a Celtic Studies publication (I forget the title of the Journal and article off the top of my head, as I've filed them away for the moment) wherein The Morrighan, during the Da Derga's Hostel tale--when asked who She is--utters off a string of names and epithets, including Macha, Bodb, Nemain, as well as even "Samhain"--"Summer's End"!!! So....there ya' go! ;o)
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Iowa
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 12:17 AMThanks, MacMorrighan. But the question to my mind is this: is it relevant?
There are two aspects to this question: is the goddess name related to the festival? Among people of Latino ancestry there are many men named Jesus (pronounced "hey-soos"). That doesn't mean any of them are related to the titular founder of Christianity. The word as used by most people, is from the Irish, and that, in turn, is from the Gaelic "Samhuinn" That comes from Old Irish "samain" which literally means "summer's end," from Old Irish "sam" (meaning "summer") and "fuin" (meaning "end"). Is Her name merely a title based on the festival day?
The second aspect is that the claim of a Celtic God of Death known as "Sam Hain" which is sometimes put forward by, well, let me be generous today, certain uneducated people who have a theological agenda. It this neomythic ol' Sam associated with this Goddess?
If the answer to both of these questions is "no" or "there's not enough information," then it's an interesting factoid but about as important as knowing who won the World Series in 1994.
Namaste!
(The last comment is a trick question. Nobody won the World Series in 1994. There was a players' strike and the series wasn't played.) -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 12:31 AMOf course Her name is related to the Sabbat--she is frequently associated with this day thtoughout mythology. Are you unfamiliar with Irish mythology, msy I ask? The clerics who wrote down these stories simply didn't throw around the names and terms for Great Festivals willy-nilly, after all. ;o) -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 11:24 AMPerhaps, but you're assuming that the Goddess, by that name, came before the festival. I haven't seen any information to support that. -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 8:39 PMI never assumed anything of the kind! However, it seems to me that you;re rather being obscurantist, I fear, my friend. -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Thu, November 1, 2007 - 8:57 PMHmmmm...speaking of the case of the chicken or the egg...it also seems (at least to me) that you are engaging in is a shifting of the burdon of proof. You see, what MANY scholars try to do is claim that because one has not proven their case (to which they are opposed); they are correct by default. Moreover, they also rather ironically assume that it cannot possibly be (in this particular example) that Morrighan lent Her epithet to Samhain rather than the other way around, regardless of the fact that they haven'r proven a damned thing, either. -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Fri, November 2, 2007 - 12:20 AMI'm not trying to be obscurantist or anything else. I find the topic very interesting. I'm not trying to prove or disprove anything. I would like to know, however, if the festival took its name from the goddess, if the goddess took her name from the festival, or if they're not related at all. The information I've seen seems to say they're not related any more than "Chan Wang" of the "Shanghai Knights" movie is related to John Wayne (whose real name was Marion Morrison any way). :)
I'm not claiming anything. I'd just like to know.
Namaste! -
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Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Fri, November 2, 2007 - 10:27 AMYes, I didn't think you were *really* being that way, but sometimes it's necessary to point it out, anyway (I've seen a lot of crap, for example by ROnald Hutton, get called "scholarship" for no damned good reason. *EG*).
But, given that The Morrighan frequents the festival of Samhain (more than any other time), they absolutely *are* related to one extent or another. In fact, Gaelic mythology tends to posit it as her especial time of year--her principle myths occur during this time. As a result, we mustn't be too quick to call something "a coinsidant", when such a case cannot easily be made (if at all). ;o)
Take care,
Wade -
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Unsu...
Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Fri, November 2, 2007 - 7:43 PMAt the same time, we need to also avoid that name similarities are definitely NOT a coincidence. You seem to be making the same mistake you're exhorting others not to make. -
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This is the maximum depth. Additional responses will not be threaded.
Re: The Goddess, "Samhain"?!
Sat, November 3, 2007 - 1:01 AMRespectfully, Nimbrethil, I'm not suggesting that the same names are or are not a coincidence. What I'm suggesting is that it should be investigated without any suppositions. I don't think such an attitude is making a mistake, but if you do, so be it.
Namaste!
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